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February 28, 2007

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Comments

Ali

I'm sure I'll offend a few people here but frankly "white canidate's" church sounds like the mormons (whose own holy book says that dark skinned people are spawn of satan in the book of Alma, chapter 3) and that won't keep me from voting for Romney if he expresses a political viewpoint I'm interested in. The Republicans gotta cut out this gimmicky stuff. I'm not going to vote for Obama because I don't like his policy ideas not because he's an "Islamo-facist, reverse racist three headed monster." Let me examine this program:

Point 2: Commitment to the Black Community

Pretty dated. I'll admit that sounds like something from the 60s.

Points 3-6

3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic

Well, that's what you guys have been telling us to work toward for years! "The Black community has a 90% illegitamacy rate." "Black kids don't know how to read and write standard English." "Work harder." So if we actually get together and try to do it, knowing we're black people and black people in America tend to be more screwed up, we're "afrocentric." How else do you expect us to do it? The kids are lost in a world of stupid- hip-hop, gangs, sex. The schools in the community are poor. The parents are frankly idiots for the most part. I see nothing wrong with encouraging this. And no I wouldn't care if there was a white church that did the same. I live in an area with a lot of "rednecks"- there are a lot of screwed up white people who have been raised by druggie parents and things like that, so I wouldn't care if they got together and tried to improve themselves.

7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect

Gee, sorry. Like I said about the "black irresponsibility" above

8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"

Hmm... Barack Obama obviously hasn't followed that one. I don't know what they mean by this. Could potentially be racist if they mean don't move to a white neighborhood. It also could mean stay and improve your neighborhood if you get money. In the latter context, its good advice. Keeping money in a neighborhood inevitably raises it's economic condition. Once again, I would not care if a white church did it.

9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community

Same as point 8- its about community improvement and I wouldn't care if white people did it.

10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions

How else are we going to build great political interest groups like other ethnic groups (ex. Jewish immigrants in the 19th century did through hard work.)

11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System

Now that one is stupid. That'll keep you broke. I don't pledge allegiance to Jesse Jackson and the rest of the money grabbers.

12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."

Depends on what the "Black Value System" is.

Debbie

Ali, thank you so much for the comment. I think what Mr. Rush was point out is that if yo changed the word "black" in the list to "white", it would be considered extremely racist. There seems to be a double standard for some folks.

I have no problem with blacks or any other group, religion, race, whatever, having meetings for their own. But it seems there is reverse discrimination when a group of white folks want to do the same thing.

This is the point I take away from Mr. Rush's article.

I don't like Hillary and have seen her 'machine' in action. Obama should look out.

I like Romney and could vote for him. I also like Duncan Hunter, but I don't believe he will rise to the top.

You won't make anybody mad here, we like differing opinions and view points.

kathy

I am watching Hannity and Colmes right now with Eric Rush talking about this very topic.

Alan is defending Obama of course. How can you question his faith? blah, blah, blah!

Good Post!

Stormwarning

Obama's religion, his relgious beliefs, or the stated mission of his church should not be an issue here. Groping for reasons to not vote for Obama among people who are almost all certainly not going to vote for him or any Democrat anyway, is an exercise in what we all now have to look forward to in these days of blogging and the "Internet news heard first here" syndrome (I ask whether it is latent hatred in disguise).

Please! If Obama's church wants to spread Black culture and reinformce Black family values, how is that so different from some "white church" trying to impose its faith and beliefs on me?

Your beliefs are yours to hold; Obama's beliefs are his to hold...he's not imposing them on me, so why should I Care?

And further, emphasizing Obama's middle name as if it is some "black mark" is silly. One of my very dear friend's name is Hussein Ali. Does that automatically make him a terrorist? Not by any stretch of the imagination. Another of my very good friends is a Palestinian. He and I have frequently discussed the Middle East over breakfast at a local diner (before I moved from where they actually have diners). He is Palestinian and I am Jewish. We are friends and marvel at how the rest of the World would somehow stereotypically expect us to beat the living cr@p out of each other, simply because of our heritage.

I say leave Obama and his heritage, his race and his religion out of the dialog leading to the next election.

andy

I agree with Ali in that Barack Obama belonging to a church that wants to focus on blacks first will not keep me from voting for him if he has good ideas. He is young in politics so I hope we see more. I do not agree however with the fact that any church focuses only on one race. Granted, some groups need more help financially or academically than others, but preaching about not helping other ethnic groups breeds ethnic divides. If the pastor were to preach focusing on the community that would be different. I would love nothing more than to see equality among all ethnic groups. There would be much less violence and more dialogue.

I just went to the Mormon's website where they have the normal christian bible and their book of mormon online so you can read them and the book you mentioned didn't say that blacks were the spawn of Satan. I have heard that before, but it made me confused because one of my good friends is a black mormon and he has never metioned anything about racism against him in his church. I don't suppose Romney is a racist unless we see otherwise. I guess it would be like saying all southern whites are racist because their great great great grandparents had slaves.

I think everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt. If someone deserves a label by their actions it shouldn't be applied as a blanket to everyone around them.

Give Barack a chance to show the country that he will help everyone and not just focus on his church's tenets.

Mark

Mr King would look down at Mr Obama!!
He needs to ask for forgiveness from the people Of America

Stormwarning

Dr, King would "look down on" Obama? For what? Obama should ask for forgiveness from the American people? For what?

Obama's religion and his church or their programs have nothing to do with his fitness (I don't think he is electable frankly). Again, since none of the regulars here would be expected to actually vote for Obama, let alone a Democrat, I consider this entire subject to be character assassination.

jb1125

Barack Obama, along Oprah Winfrey and many other Chicacagoans, belongs to Trinity United Church of Chirst. The church follows black liberation theology. "Liberation theology is a school of theology that focuses on Jesus Christ as not only the Redeemer but also the Liberator of the Oppressed. It emphasizes the Christian mission to bring justice to the poor and oppressed, particularly through political activism."Wikipedia

Why is there a need for a black liberation theology?
One of the major focuses of liberation theology is, as mentioned above, to bring justice to the poor and oppressed. According to the Pastor Jeremiah Wright, "It [black liberation theology] originates in the days of the Trans-Atlantic slave trade." Throughout American history, African Americans have been the poor and oppressed, for the most part only due to their skin color. Thus, it is practical for blacks to unite together under a specific liberation theology that is relevant to their struggle.

Kevin Considine, graduate student at Catholic Theological Union, comments on Obama's church for religionandspirituality.com :
"Recently the Illinois Democrat has been criticized for something that should be a positive: his church affiliation. No, not because he attends church. And not because he's being honest about rooting his politics in his faith.

No, he's taking flak because his church, Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, has linked traditional Christian faith to black empowerment and combating "middle-classness." What this means is that the church's theology preaches a foundation of loving God and loving one's neighbor by attempting to apply these tenets to real life in the community. So, the church champions ideals such as the black family, racial justice and a materially humble lifestyle as ways to live out discipleship to Christ.

To be honest, I'm not sure how this is a problem. But the revelation that an African-American family is attending a vigorous and socially conscious black church is apparently a touchy subject. One could, ahem, speculate about the motives behind such touchiness. But let it suffice to say that Sen. Obama's church affiliation has raised some hackles.

For example, Fox News pundit Sean Hannity has suggested that the church is divisive and borders on being a separatist cult. And MSNBC talking head Tucker Carlson has claimed that Obama's church proclaims a "racially exclusive theology" that seems to "contradict the basic tenets of Christianity." This is because, in Mr. Carlson's opinion, Christianity is explicitly "anti-racial."

Right. As if Christianity is far off in another dimension and completely divorced from the messiness of everyday life. As if holiness and righteousness are possible without confronting the evils that exist in our midst.

Exactly what tenets of Christianity can a church that describes itself as "unapologetically Christian" be contradicting? They seem to be doing just fine with Jesus' command to love the Lord your God and love your neighbor. And they seem to truly embrace the demand for social justice that has deep roots in Scripture. Their dedication to the gospel may be challenging to many of us, and that's a good thing, but it's disingenuous to call them divisive and separatist when they clearly focus on God as revealed through Jesus.

And if by "anti-racial" Mr. Carlson means that there isn't a clearly mandated Christian response to racism because it isn't a current problem, then he's deluding himself. The problem persists, and thus racial reconciliation and justice are indeed Christian mandates. They go part and parcel with following Christ.

Having said that, I think that the critiques of Trinity Church of Christ reveal more about us as a country than about Sen. Obama or his critics. It shows that there are some versions of Christianity that make us comfortable and some that don't.

If a church's theology preaches Jesus through self-reliance, personal morality, building wealth and colorblindness, then we don't have much problem with it. But if a church's theology talks about community building, personal and social responsibility, the sin of materialism and black empowerment or racial reconciliation, then we become uncomfortable.

This difference is similar to what theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer called the distinction between cheap grace and costly grace. Cheap grace is what makes us comfortable, because it doesn't ask much of us. Costly grace, however, challenges us to be Christ-like by sacrificing and taking up our cross. It asks us to risk our comfort and get our hands dirty in the real world. If there's any confusion between the two, it's safe to say that Jesus' call and gift is that of costly grace.

This is the grace that Sen. Obama's church seems to proclaim. For they're not out there preaching the gospel of health and wealth. That is, they don't theologize that the God of Jesus Christ is some great ATM machine in the sky that will provide goods to consume. Instead, they're dedicated to loving God, serving others, nurturing the souls of its congregants and bridging the divide between the poor, middle and upper classes within their church community. In short, they're interested in authentic witness to the Gospel within a specific context.

If this makes some uncomfortable, so be it. At least they're following Jesus in a way that aims for righteous transformation of the real world rather than a pie-in-the-sky kind of way.

Now I'm not saying that Sen. Obama is a victim here. Nor am I trying to get votes for him, although I must admit that I've sent a few bucks to his campaign. And I'm not saying he's a saint, either. Heck, I don't even know the man.

My point is simple. I'm sure there are many ways that the media can criticize Sen. Obama's candidacy. But his church is not a liability. And they should be ashamed for trying to make it seem like one. "
Link

David Brody, a Christain Broadcast News correspondent, visited Obama's church:

"When I was out in Illinois covering Obama’s big presidential announcement in Springfield, our CBN crew went to Chicago and asked to shoot video inside the Church. A week before, I had put in multiple requests but I received no response. So on Sunday we walked into the Church and asked if we could film.After waiting about 15 minutes or so, they agreed and we started to videotape. After 20 minutes or so of videotaping, the Church said they meant still photography not video. There seemed to be a little miscommunication here. We immediately stopped filming. We ended up using still shots from the video that we had in our possession. I desperately tried to convince them to let us use the video but they said no.

During my time inside their service, it seemed pretty normal to me. The worship was very charismatic, the music was up-tempo and the people seemed like they were really into it. I didn’t hear the preacher speak, so clearly that is extremely important. I can’t speak to that. But the people we dealt with were extremely nice. " Link

From State Of The Qusan, referring to Hannity's coverage on FNC of Obama's church:
"I don't know where they got this kneegro to go on TV and spew this BS but, being from Chicago, I've been to Trinity United Church of Christ. Many of my friends are members. Oprah Winfrey was once a member. It's a typical black church, albeit it has many affluent members, and I cannot believe that anyone would stoop this low. It's just disgusting!"

Mission Statement of Church:
Trinity United Church of Christ has been called by God to be a congregation that is not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ and that does not apologize for its African roots! As a congregation of baptized believers, we are called to be agents of liberation not only for the oppressed, but for all of God’s family. We, as a church family, acknowledge, that we will, building on this affirmation of "who we are" and "whose we are," call men, women, boys and girls to the liberating love of Jesus Christ, inviting them to become a part of the church universal, responding to Jesus’ command that we go into all the world and make disciples!

We are called out to be "a chosen people" that pays no attention to socio-economic or educational backgrounds. We are made up of the highly educated and the uneducated. Our congregation is a combination of the haves and the have-nots; the economicallydisadvantaged, the under-class, the unemployed and the employable.
The fortunate who are among us combine forces with the less fortunate to become agents of change for God who is not pleased with America’s economic mal-distribution! W.E.B. DuBois indicated that the problem in the 20th century was going to be the problem of the color line. He was absolutely correct. Our job as servants of God is to address that problem and eradicate it in the name of Him who came for the whole world by calling all men, women, boys and girls to Christ."Link

Pastor Jeremiah Wright:
"Black theology is one of the many theologies in the Americas that became popular during the liberation theology movement. They include Hispanic theology, Native American theology, Asian theology and Womanist theology.

"We were always seen as objects. When we started defining ourselves, it scared those who try to control others by naming them and defining them for them; Oppressors do not like “others” defining themselves."

"African-centered thought, unlike Eurocentrism, does not assume superiority and look at everyone else as being inferior.

"There is more than one center from which to view the world. In the words of Dr. Janice Hale, “Difference does not mean deficience. It is from this vantage point that Black liberation theology speaks. "
Link

Barack Obama:
"If I say to anybody in Iowa -- white, black, Hispanic or Asian -- that my church believes in the African-American community strengthening families or adhering to the black work ethic or being committed to self-discipline and self-respect and not forgetting where you came from, I don't think that's something anybody would object to. ... I think I'd get a few amens."
Link

As for the claim the church is more loyal to Africa than America, "while the Trinity website contains a "10-point Vision" that calls for its congregation to make "a non-negotiable commitment to Africa," there is no statement on the website that such a commitment supersedes a parishioner's commitment to the United States. Moreover, a fact sheet on the White House website is titled "The U.S. Commitment To Africa's Growth And Prosperity," and the Bush White House has reaffirmed its "commitment to Africa" as recently as 2005." (Media Matters)
http://www.obamapedia.org/page/Obama+Myths

Stormwarning

JB1125...a voice of reason and a voice of intellect.

Real interesting point of view.

SEDGFLD

Are extreme right people really this gullible or do they practice lying?
You might want to turn your comments in the direction to those who control you and advocate:
torture,
lying and deceit,
money over human beings,
theft,
bodily injury,
voyeurism,
assassination, annihilation of a people so they can grab their land, under the guise of their savior coming, hatred against all who disagree with them, unmitigated greed and power,
the blasphemous actions of demanding to be worshipped,
kicking people out of church for having the nerve to disagree with them,
and many other anti-christian actions.
I wasn't brought up on the cultist "christianity' of hatred and bigotry and have no intentions of doing so now. When all is said and done, we are judged on our individual actions and inactions, regardless of human leadership choices. If people choose to worship other human beings and their accompanying hatred, they will be judged accordingly.

Shania

Someone who is committed to "the black value system" tells me he is not as concerned about the American value system.
If a church needs to seperate themselves from the mainstream in this way, than they should do it in the country they support, Africa!
How many Americans would vote for a presidential candidate who was the member of a church that professed the following credo?

1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the White Community
3. Commitment to the White Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the White Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of “Middleclassness”
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System.

because that candidate would be instantly branded a racist, among the most vile and frightening of white supremacists.

COME ON PEOPLE!! WAKE UP!

Debbie

Shania: Excellent points you make, thank you for your contribution.

Gordon Johnstone

We must insist that religion, and all of its depressigly many manifestations, is booted unceremoniously out of politics everywhere in the world. If people chose to have certain beliefs then fine, but not in government policy and in my name. I cannot believe that in 2008, after all of the religion and race related catastrophies there have been throughout history we consider religion or ethnicity as relevant to our decisions on where to put a cross on a ballot paper. Shame on us.

Gordon Johnstone

Hmm, just re-visited this to see if there were any meaningful comments - thank you SEDGFLD for your thoughts - appreciated. I assume that silence from the rest of you is assent and therefore thank you.It is nice to have one's thoughts and feelings realised.

Debbie

I think SEDGFLD is an angry person. No, religion should not be a part of government, that's the reason that America came to be in the first place. But the US was founded on Christian and Jewish principles. Islam and race hatred groups like Obama's church go against what we are founded on.

Concerned Citizen

More bad news about Obama from a very credible news source. Check the website out for yourselves.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57341 OBAMA RAISED FUNDS FOR ISLAMIC CAUSES Speeches for Palestinian refugees called code for Israel's destruction, Posted: February 25, 2008, 10:18 pm Eastern, By Aaron Klein, © 2008 WorldNetDaily

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=45777 OBAMA AIDE WANTS TALKS WITH TERRORISTS Foreign adviser's 'anti-Israel policies,'
sympathy for Hamas, raise concerns, Posted: January 29, 2008, 1:00 am Eastern

By Aaron Klein, © 2008 WorldNetDaily.com

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=57231 OBAMA WORKED WITH TERRORIST, Senator helped fund organization that rejects 'racist' Israel's existence
Posted: February 24, 2008, 5:44 pm Eastern, By Aaron Klein, © 2008 WorldNetDaily

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59702 OBAMA’S 10 REASONS FOR SUPPORTING INFANTICIDE, Posted: January 16, 2008, 1:00 am Eastern, © 2008 WorldNetDaily

Debbie

concerned citizen: Thanks for those links, much appreciated.

Mr. Johnstone: Religion should not be part of our government, but connections a church that preaches White hatred is important.

Stormwarning

Sorry. "Concerned Citizen" wrote: "from a very credible news source." No its not.

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In 1952, Hubbard built on the existing framework set forth in Dianetics, and published a new set of teachings as Scientology, a religious philosophy.[45] In December 1953, Hubbard incorporated three churches – a "Church of American Science", a "Church of Scientology" and a "Church of Spiritual Engineering" – in Camden, New Jersey.[46] On 18 February 1954, with Hubbard's blessing, some of his followers set up the first local Church of Scientology, the Church of Scientology of California, adopting the "aims, purposes, principles and creed of the Church of American Science, as founded by L. Ron Hubbard."[46][47] The movement quickly spread, both in the United States and other English-speaking countries such as Britain, Ireland, South Africa and Australia.[48] The second local Church of Scientology to be set up, after the one in California, was in Auckland, New Zealand.[48] In 1955, Hubbard established the Founding Church of Scientology in Washington, D.C.[38] In 1957, the Church of Scientology of California was granted tax-exempt status by the United States Internal Revenue Service (IRS), and so, for a time, were other local churches.[39][49] In 1958 however, the IRS started a review of the appropriateness of this status.[39] In 1959, Hubbard moved to England, remaining there until the mid-1960s.[38]

The Church experienced further challenges. The United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) began an investigation concerning the claims the Church of Scientology made in connection with its E-meters.[39] On January 4, 1963, they raided offices of the Church of Scientology and seized hundreds of E-meters as illegal medical devices. The devices have since been required to carry a disclaimer saying that they are a purely religious artifact.[50]

In the mid-sixties, the Church of Scientology was banned in several Australian states, starting with Victoria in 1965.[51] The ban was based on the Anderson Report, which found that the auditing process involved "command" hypnosis, in which the hypnotist assumes "positive authoritative control" over the patient. On this point the report stated,

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